Xinjiang Sanctions Episode 1 - Zumretay Arkin and Jewher Ilham

Xinjiang Sanctions

In Episode 1, James is joined by Zumretay Arkin, Programme and Advocacy Manager for the World Uyghur Congress, and Jewher Ilham, rForced Labour Project Co-ordinator at the Worker Rights Consortium, to discuss allegations of forced labour in Xinjiang. He asks Zumretay and Jewher about their personal connections to policies generating forced labour in Xinjiang, and what is being done to address them.

Transcript

In Episode 1, James is joined by Zumretay Arkin, Programme and Advocacy Manager for the World Uyghur Congress, and Jewher Ilham, Forced Labour Project Co-ordinator at the Worker Rights Consortium, to discuss allegations of forced labour in Xinjiang. He asks Zumretay and Jewher about their personal connections to policies generating forced labour in Xinjiang, and what is being done to address them.

Transcript

James Cockayne 00:01

Welcome to Xinjiang Sanctions, a podcast looking at the global response to forced labour in Xinjiang, China. I'm James Cockayne, a Professor of Global Politics and Anti-Slavery at the University of Nottingham. I've been working on modern slavery and forced labour issues for the last decade and researching Xinjiang forced labour for the last year. You can see the results of that research at www.xinjiangsanctions.info. In this short podcast series, I speak with global experts to understand why forced labour emerged in Xinjiang, and what governments and business are doing to try to address it. I'm very pleased to be joined on this episode by Zumretay Arkin, Programme and Advocacy Manager for the World Uyghur Congress, and Jewher Ilham, Forced Labour Project Co-ordinator at the Worker Rights Consortium. Welcome.

Zumretay Arkin 00:51

Thank you for having us.

Jewher Ilham 00:52

Thank you for having us.

James Cockayne 00:54

Jewher I might start with you. What do people mean when they refer to forced labour in Xinjiang?

Jewher Ilham 01:00

Oftentimes, when people think of forced labour, they think of people are forced to work in a factory and get paid very low wages, or work in horrible conditions, which applies to what many Uyghurs are going through in the Uyghur region. But what's so different about the forced labour in the Uyghur region is that it's state imposed, state sponsored forms of forced labour, which is widespread and the Chinese government has been using the excuse of for the name of poverty alleviation, and forcing Uyghurs who might have already had perfect jobs or a career that they have been working in for years, and forcing them to work in low income jobs. And there are also different kinds of forced labour that is happening, but within the region. First of all, there's the coerced labour of rural poor in the so called Poverty Alleviation programme. And the Chinese government has a standard of how many numbers each year they would like to subject people to be participating in such programmes and where people are sent to the so called centralised training centres -- even though it's called as training centres, but when you look at it from the outside, there's no difference from a prison because it has high fences, watchtowers, guarded with police or armed polices and barbed wires. And there are also other kinds of forced labour, which is the forced labour of detainees, it could be ex detainees, or current detainees. So detainees include people who are locked up in internment camps, re education camps, and also there's prison labour as well. So they're all different kinds of forced labour but they're all fall into the categories of forced labour practices. For the prison labour are people who have already received sentences for example, like several members of my family have been locked up, and then received from 10 years to life sentence. And oftentimes prison labour -- not only in the Uyghur region, but in China as a whole -- prison labour has always been known to be a very common practices to be used by the Chinese government. And oftentimes, it's in the Uyghur region, oftentimes the XPCC which is the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps, they have their own prison systems and factories where they subject prisoners to work in XPCC-owned factories, it could produce from textile to food and all kinds of yarning, harvesting cotton, and all sorts of manufacturing the habits of those factories.

James Cockayne 03:44

So it's an incredibly complex and organised pattern of forced work that's going on here – or really several different organised patterns of forced work.

Jewher Ilham 03:56

Besides the forced labour practices in the Uyghur region, forced labour is also happening outside of the Uyghur region as well not only in prison labour, but also there are forced labour transfer programmes, which is also administrated by the Chinese government, by the XPCC as well, where Uyghur people are sent shipped out of their homes are sent out of their homelands and sent to mainland cities like Beijing, Shanghai, and some provinces like Shandong to work in factories. And oftentimes those people cannot go home and they have to work in factories for long hours with very low payments. And those companies that are participating in forced labour transfers accept government subsidies, and it's oftentimes shown on their annual reports and that's how the researchers have been and human rights advocates have been able to identify which of the companies have been participating in the Labour Transfer programmes and according to the recent reports that at least 80,000 Uyghurs and not only Uyghurs, but also other kinds of ethnic groups have been forcibly transferred from our homeland Uyghur region to factories in central China and eastern China.

James Cockayne 05:11

So this aspect of working in factories in private business is a new development in a way beyond the tradition of coerced work as part of the rehabilitation process in the criminal justice and the political re-education system. Is that right? Is that one of the things that’s new and different about what we’re seeing in these policies in Xinjiang?

Jewher Ilham 05:36

Yes, it’s oftentimes people think forced labour is only related to economic gain, like profit gain. But oftentimes, what is happening in the Uyghur region is that forced labour has been used as a tool by the Chinese government to brainwash the people to re educate the people, and to assimilate the people to -- just like rest of China -- to make them becoming more and more Han Chinese to eliminate Uyghur culture, to wipe out the identity, Uyghur identity. And you know, from banning the Uyghur language to be spoken in those facilities, in those camps in those factories, to having forcing them to sing Chinese propaganda songs. I was taught several of those songs growing up, actually, you know, 没有共产党就没有新中国 (Méiyǒu Gòngchǎndǎng jiù méiyǒu xīn Zhōngguó) , it’s like, “If there’s no Communist Party, then there's no new China”, you know, it has always been a thing for a very long time. And now it's just being forced on the Uyghurs. And you can't even be granted a meal without singing a song to praise Xi Jinping, without singing a song to praise the Communist Party and those forced labour practices, those strict and crucial policies have been used in the name of poverty alleviation, also countering terrorism and combating religious extremism. But it's really that the Chinese government wants to seize control of the region, and subdue the Uyghur population and just strengthen their control over the entire community.

Zumretay Arkin 07:06

Just to reiterate, maybe some of the points that Jewher has mentioned, I think forced labour itself, like the forced labour schemes and programmes, they're not new, you know, in itself, I think there's a long history of forced labour in China, if you go back to, you know, Cultural Revolution period, a lot of Chinese people were also undergoing forced labour programmes. And even in our region. I know, for example, my grandparents, my own father went through these forced labour programmes, because at the time this was imposed, and again, it's always imposed by the state by the central government. And then of course, it's kind of separated to lower levels. And then directives comes from different kind of levels. But forced labour has always been a thing. There was also the hashar programme a couple years ago, as well in the region, where, you know, especially cotton picking, this was imposed. I think, what's new is that how Jewher has also said it is it has this like new political dimension where it is also political and economic dimensions, because forced labour, obviously, you know, making things easier for the governments but also for companies. So it's profitable, because of the industrialization, our globalised world, and you know, how the global supply chains are heavily dependent on Chinese market and Chinese labour. This has become a big economic, I suppose, centre for the government, but the government is also using it as a political tool of oppression. And I think the industrialization has played a key part and kind of the ongoing state sponsored forced labour regime, which also comes actually at the same time as the securitisation of the region. So this goes back to of course, 2014, when Xi Jinping actually visited East Turkestan for the first time, I'm referring to East Turkestan, as you know, as the Uyghur region. And actually, you know, in 2014, when he visited the region, this was really like the beginning of escalation of the discriminatory policies that were going to be implemented in the years to come. And that led to the mass arbitrary detentions and camps targeting of Uyghurs and, you know, other target groups on the basis of their religion and ethnic identity in the name of countering terrorism. So later, with the appointment of Chen Quanguo, as the Party Secretary to the region, who really implemented all of the mass sophisticated surveillance system that really discriminates against targeted Uyghurs, we saw this open air prison, which really came to control every single aspect of Uyghur's lives. And in the recent years, now, we're really talking about this like state sponsored coerced labour regime. And this is as Jewher mentioned, present in various industries. And actually interesting fact today, Chinese state media reported that Xi Jinping was actually visiting the region again after eight years, and then this time around, he really spent a lot of time visiting Bingtuan, which is the XPCC which the Xinjiang Production and Construction orps, which is actually a paramilitary organisation that is responsible for really implementing all of these forced labour schemes, and also the internment camps. And another interesting fact is that this entity was sanctioned multilaterally last year by the US, UK, Canada and the EU, because of the human rights violations regarding Uyghurs. So I think when we talk about forced labour, we need to understand a little bit about also like history, the past history, but also today how it is playing a key role in the genocide and repression of Uyghurs and other Turkic people in the region as well.

James Cockayne 10:45

The historical context is clearly crucial to a nuanced understanding of what's going on. And indeed, President Xi's own father, was the Political Commissar for the Chinese Communist Party in the 1950s in the region, and present at the transformation of the region into the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region. So this has a long and deep history, this complex relationship between the CCP, Chinese Communist Party and the region. Your families also have long and complex history in the region. And each of you have been directly and personally touched by these policies that we're talking about. Could I ask if you would mind sharing with our listeners a little bit about those impacts, perhaps beginning with you Zumretay?

Zumretay Arkin 11:35

Yeah, I mean, I was born and raised in Ürümqi the capital of the region. And I emigrated to Canada with my family members back in 2003. But just my immediate family, and maybe a couple of others, but all of the rest of my family are pretty much back home. And I have lost contact with them at the beginning of 2017, when there was the escalation of repression, when we started hearing news that the passports of Uyghurs were being confiscated, and that, you know, a lot of the international flights were being cancelled. It was a time when this region was becoming highly securitised, but also closed off to the rest of the world. So there was no information going in, no information going out. Also, our own relatives started cutting, you know, links with us in the diaspora, because even just maintaining contact with your relatives abroad, could be a factor of suspicion for the Chinese government, which of course, now with, you know, the available evidence, the multiple leaks of Chinese documents we know that having contact with family members abroad, especially if they're based in Muslim majority countries, that can actually be your reason for internment. So, at the timing, for us, it was very scary, because we didn't know what was really happening and why sudden, you know, change of policies, you know, were imposed. And so I haven't been able to speak to my family since then. But the only times that we hear news is almost every time when someone has received a sentence or has gone missing or has been interned. And these news we receive through media, or through different sources. And as of now I have I think over 30 of my relatives that are interned in camps or are missing, mostly because of their religious background, or because they were businessmen, a lot of business people in the family and also people of influence or because they had travelled abroad to Muslim majority countries in previous years. So these were the main reasons. But also I know that, for example, my aunt is being questioned a lot by the authorities by the local police officers, her home is often raided in the middle of the night, just because of her connection to me. And of course, as an activist, I know that I am, you know, being monitored by the Chinese government that everything that I do, my digital footprint is somewhere there and that every single action is being closely monitored by the government. So they know also about my family. So this is actually common practice that the Chinese government uses the hostage diplomacy where they threaten or harass your family members at home. So in an attempt to trying to silence you, especially if you're a high profile activist, or even if you're not a high profile activist, they will often use these tactics to really silence you even if you are living in these like free democratic societies. Even if you're not a Chinese citizen anymore. They have huge leverage, because you're family members are still back home. So I mean, other than this, I don't have any news about my family members, we're not allowed to go back. No, our family members are not allowed to come to us. So there's just like this disconnect and it's just frustrating for us because in our time or day and age where communication has never been easier, you're just one text away one phone call away from you know, family members or people around the world. And still, at this time, we're unable to speak to our family members. Just one simple hello on the phone. So I think if you speak to a lot of Uyghurs in the diaspora, this is a common thing.

James Cockayne 15:06

Are you in a similar situation?

Jewher Ilham 15:08

Unfortunately, all Uyghurs are in similar situations. Now, I can assure you, every single Uyghur - doesn't matter where they're located in any corner of this world, they have at least one to ten to even I know someone who has 70 distant family members have been impacted by Chinese government's brutal policies. I was born and raised in Beijing, actually. And my parents started working in Beijing, they moved to Beijing since they were teenagers. And growing up I always knew my father, even though he was living in Beijing, even though he moved to mainland China moved away from our homeland. At such a young age, his heart was always tied to our Uyghur people. Because since the 90s, when he was teaching in the university since he was a student, who has been gathering students and talking about politics and history of the Uyghurs and how to develop the Uyghur region to a better place for our people. And he has often been the target by the Chinese government for many, many years. And my father started a website in 2006, which captured lots of attention from not only inside China, but also overseas as well which a website called UyghurBiz which he wanted to create a platform for Uyghur people and Han Chinese to have a dialogue and understand each other. But that was considered a crime by the Chinese government. And he oftentimes spoke with journalists. He published articles, he spoke with media and different platforms, he spoke with the Chinese government officials to try to point out that discrimination is happening in the Uyghur region, Uyghur people have been forced to work in lower income jobs, even though they probably have a higher education background. And just because of their Uyghur identity, they have been targeted. And Uyghur people have not been able to practice their religion freely because of local governments restrictions, and he has been putting out those. But all these actions were considered as separatist moves, which now the Chinese government used to target a lot of Uyghurs and especially Uyghurs overseas who have been advocating for human rights. Therefore, my father was sentenced to life in 2014. When my father was arrested in 2014, the day before he was arrested was the last time I spoke with him. And I haven't seen him or heard from him since then. I am all alone in America, I accidentally came here as a teenager. I was not even planning to come to the US. I was not planning to stay here for more than two weeks, I was planning to accompany my father just to help him settle down since he was invited by Indiana University as a visiting scholar. And as you can see, here I am after nine years all alone, without a single family member with me, I cannot communicate with the rest of my family from my father's side at all and all of them had removed me from their social media, back in 2016, which was, as Zumetar mentioned, 2016-2017 was the escalation of those repressive policies. And those were when people start to fear for their lives, and they had to remove people. Even though their close family contacts they had to remove them from their social media or contact books in order to prevent themselves from being targeted by the Chinese government. And besides my father, my cousin was sentenced to 10 years for what? She was a nurse. But she was on her way to a shopping mall with her friends, regular weekend er weekdays where she just wanted to relax. But she was stopped at one of those checkpoints, which is regularly located every few blocks on the streets, just like in the airport, like a TSA where you have to go through a gate and scan yourself. And that's one of those checkpoints that she had to go through. And her phone was confiscated. She refused to turn in her phone because she did not believe she committed any crime. And the Chinese police found an article and a picture of my father. And that's the reason why she was sentenced to 10 years. She was just few years older than me; now she's spending the most beautiful years of her life in a prison and which applies to many, many Uyghur young ladies, young boys. Several of my uncles have been sent to re-education camps, for what reason? For doing business in Central Asia, which was with all the legal documents with all the legal process. They had their visas, they had their passports, they were not smuggling into the country. They were not doing illegal businesses. But just for visiting a country that is not China. They were sent to reeducation camps because, quote, unquote, they were exposed to extremist ideologies. And this is applying not only to my family or Zumretay's family. It applies to all, every Uyghur family that you see that you encounter, that you meet, or you have heard of. There's no escape. There's no one single person that can run away from this. Because the Chinese government made sure to target everyone. Just a few weeks ago, when I was in Europe during a work trip when I was interviewing a refugee, during my interview, my laptop was hacked in front of my eyes, my mouse was moving. And that was not the first time that it happened. Our IT team had to meet with me three times to be able to eliminate all the threats from my laptop, and it happens oftentimes with my phone as well. I don't know how many times I had to go through security checks for my laptop, because of the activism work that I have been doing for the past eight years.

James Cockayne 20:49

I think for those of us Jewher and Zumretay, who don't have to live with this enforced isolation from families with this shadow over our shoulder, every time we get online or move around, it's really very difficult to understand how incredibly difficult this must be for you. And we would forgive you, I think, if the reaction that you had, was to take cover, and to seek to avoid being visible. And yet here you are on a podcast, your names well-known. And you're speaking out on these issues. That's really quite amazing. And shows incredible fortitude. How do you bring yourselves to do this? It must be an incredible struggle. Jewher, how do you have the courage? How do you find the courage to speak out on these issues?

Jewher Ilham 21:52

I think it's how my father set an example for me. He knew he was going to prison. He was sent to house arrest multiple times I was house arrested with him multiple times, my entire family, my three year old brother, my eight month old brother were sent into house arrest with him multiple times. He knew he was going to be sent to prison. He told me he knew and he said I might be sentenced to 10 years, I might be sentenced to 20 years. As long as there's no death sentence, it's okay. If my sacrifice can bring better life for my people that's worth it. He knew he was going to prison and he still chose the life that he chose, he still chose to speak up for my people. He was harassed, he was beaten, he was followed. We have a bugging device in our living room. Growing up, I was used to having a bugging devices in my living room, but my father continued. We had police sleeping in our living room coming into our home like it's their own own home. But he continued, and I'm living in a free world in the United States. What is my excuse? What is my excuse? My own father is serving a life sentence. My own cousin is serving a 10 year sentence. So many of my other family members are in re-education camps in and out in and out there, get released, get sent back get released and sent back again, what is my excuse to stay silent? At the same time I understand people who choose to be silent because they want to protect their other family members who are not locked up yet. I use the word ‘ye’t because you never know. So I don't blame those people. But for me, after having a father who set an example, I just couldn't sit back and just watch and pretend like nothing happened, I could not do that. And with the work that we've been doing, I have seen progresses, I've seen push backs, I've seen more pressure from both the Chinese side like positive pressure from the US, that negative pressure from the Chinese, that I've seen both. But whenever I try my best to see the positive side. Just yesterday, I talked to another refugee. She had four members of her family were released from those camps, because of the pressure that has been coming from the west. And because of those economic pressure, because of those sanctions, it had helped. And that makes me hopeful. Because I hope one day those four numbers can be expanded to 40 can be expanded to 400 to 4,000 and the millions and all those innocent people might be free because of the efforts from me, from Zumretay, from you, from anyone who's listening to this or from anyone who's trying to do something you never know. And I hope this can create a butterfly effect that can just without us seeing but it can go somewhere and effect somewhere in this world and make some Uyghur person in any corner of this world to have one family free or 10 family members free and that's what kept me going. It’s frustrating waking up sometimes knowing hundreds of 1000s. Millions of people are suffering it's hard going to sleep is hard. Waking up is hard. Having to restart your life looking at the sun, eating a chocolate enjoying an ice cream. It's hard, because you imagine, oh, those people don't have food, they probably forgot how ice cream tasted, they probably forgot how chocolate looks like. So that's what keeps me going.

Zumretay Arkin 25:10

I was reading Jewher's book recently, which I suggest everyone to read, I think her struggle is, you know, she showed extreme bravery and advocating on behalf of her dad, just when she was, you know, a teenager, and without understanding really what was happening in the world about understanding even, you know, the real politics and all of these things, she did a lot of sacrifices, and she is courageously standing up for not only her father, but also her people. And I think it's true, it's a constant struggle. It's a dilemma that all Uyghurs, we have, especially the activists, the high profile ones, because we paid huge prices. Actually, we didn't pay anything, it's our family members who paid the heavy price for our activism. So living with that, on your conscience, knowing that maybe you were the responsible person for their, you know, sentencing or death or whatever, unfortunate things are happening to them. But at the same time, I think it's important that we don't go into that vicious cycle, because it only can harm us. Standing up is necessary at this point in time, because we don't have the luxury of staying silent on these issues. Because if we the victims stay silent, then no one else is going to advocate for us, it always takes the victims themselves to push these things on the global agenda, to push stakeholders, to push policymakers towards these questions and towards action. We have to remind the world that this is necessary, because people like us are suffering. And we're not just talking about, you know, 10 or a dozen of people, we're talking about 20 million, and even more people who are suffering in these dark times. So I think even if I stay silent, the Chinese government is not going to save my family. It's too late for this, especially, you know, with the mass internment started in 2016. And all of the sophisticated system surveillance system that they have put in place, the forced labour schemes. This is me staying silent, me choosing to stay silent is not going to change the policies that are implemented by the government. So might as well just speak out and make sure that we're being heard by global actors, and that there are solutions that are brought to the table. And I am seeing this, I started working in this, you know, activist or human rights world three years ago, and I have seen in just three years, so many changes, I would never have imagined that, you know, issues like Uyghur human rights issues, or Uyghur forced labour being adopted as a key agenda point at the G7 summit for two years in a row, I would never have imagined this, I would never have imagined companies issuing statements related to abuses in my country, I would never have imagined all of these things. But here we are. And this is the result of our advocacy efforts, not only Uyghurs. But the allies that we have formed along the way. Allies, like yourself, other civil society organisations, other groups unrepresented or repressed groups, other activists, policymakers, government officials, and institutions. So I think together, we can work towards solving this and towards ending Uyghur genocide, and also towards creating mechanisms that ensure accountability for the victims, whether it's at international level or at domestic level, I really believe in that collective effort and the results that yields from these efforts.

James Cockayne 28:41

The commitment and passion and belief that you're both showing, living every day is absolutely staggering, really inspiring. I don't feel that I have any mandate to thank you, but just as one person to two others who are making incredible choices every day over and over again, I'd like to thank you both for what you're doing. You make it all sound very sensible and reasonable. But it must be incredibly hard. And there are many people I'm sure, listening, who are inspired by what you're doing, and the changes that you're making. Listening to you both it's encouraging to hear about this progress and these incremental changes. Maybe drawing on your expertise, not just from your lived experience, but from your domain area expertise, maybe I can drop down now from this inspiring level to something a little more practical, and maybe in a way banal, but that's how change is going to happen through practical grind, and ask each of you, what are the immediate changes you'd like to see and let's maybe talk about a particular audience for these requests. Let's start maybe with the US government, which is already doing a lot with the Uyghur Forced Labour Prevention Act. But what else would you like to see happen in Washington on these issues? Maybe start with you Jewher.

Jewher Ilham 30:04

First of all, I'd really love to see the expansion of the current Entity List which now is 10 entities and it will be great to see this list to be expanded which because the fact is that there are way, much more entities out there that is implicated in forced labour practices, and having a longer list is going to be helping other companies to have a guidance of who they should not be working with. And also, one other thing that I’d like to flag is that that the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act is not the end, it should be only a start. The enforcing is of course, the key and the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act is only those goods that are tainted by Uyghur forced labour from the Uyghur region is stopped at the US border, but does not prevent those goods from going to elsewhere. So for the US government to encourage other companies to pass similar laws, and for companies, they need to make sure that they should not be hypocritical and they should apply a single standard to all their market goes and to not, when they're blocked from the US border, they should not be transferring it to Canada, to Australia, to EU to UK to Japan, and end up making those countries a dumping ground for forced labour tainted goods and they should they already have a perfect guidelines from the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act which they know what they should do, who they should not be sourcing from and what they should not be sourcing. They should apply that to all their markets. And the only way for brands to ensure that they're not sourcing from Uyghur forced labour, it's to extricate from the Uyghur region completely it's, they've had two to three years of time to prep for this moment. And they should not be sourcing from forced labour at the first since the beginning. And now they have had few years from articles from WROs to prep them. And companies should not be complaining that Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act is making their life harder, because if a brand cannot profit without having their products made with forced labour, they should not be doing business at the first place.

James Cockayne 32:10

Indeed. Zumretay? Are those the priorities that you would nominate as well? Or are there other things?

Zumretay Arkin 32:15

Yeah, I think you know, the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act is extremely essential, because it does set a precedent because it is the first legislation around the world that really tackles this issue specifically. So as I just mentioned earlier, the G7 summit just ended in Bavaria, and they have adopted this eliminating Uyghur forced labour from global supply chains as a priority for these countries. And I think, you know, the UK have also prohibited you know, the imports of forced labour products in their health supply chains. Also Canada and Australia, they're also considering, you know, import bans on these products coming from forced labour. So I think these steps need to be taken, especially by these governments that are raising these issues constantly at the UN or elsewhere. I think their words have to match with their actions. And I think legislation is key. And of course, we are awaiting the EU directives on due diligence in September that will be announced by the EU Commission. And we hope that this text of this legislation, the proposed legislation will be strong enough to give enough remediation not only for the victims, but also give enough clarity as well for different stakeholders, companies, civil society organisations and others. I think, you know, at the legislative level, there must be action that has to be taken, because we have to make sure that modern slavery is eliminated. We cannot tolerate forced labour, profiting off forced labour of others in our day and age, the UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights are very clear. And if companies are not in a state where they can operate in a very transparent and open way, and if they are operating in regions or places where there are grave human rights atrocities happening, they have to, you know, start asking questions around and if they don't receive clear enough answers, then that must trigger something. And that has to have an impact on their businesses as well. So I think we have to keep putting pressure on companies. And I think companies are starting to realise that this is becoming a really big problem, not only for, of course, their operations, but also for the safety of their employees, also for their reputation, for their income and their access to the Chinese market, but also I suppose their markets elsewhere as well. And I think a big part of the solution is also on the consumers, consumers must be aware of the situation and they have to be willing to make the right choices basically, you know, if you know that a certain brand is directly implicated in these forced labour schemes, then maybe you should start boycotting or maybe not buying from this brand up until they stop this behaviour. I think as consumers, we have a lot of leverage. And I think we can make better choices to work towards a better and sustainable world, a world without financing atrocities that are happening in a strange land or somewhere else. I think our voices really have an impact. And I think talking about this, also, like online or also to your elected officials is also key in making sure that this issue is being tackled in, in various forms and different levels. International bodies, institutions have also a big part of this responsibility, because, for example, the ILO, which actually is, you know, International Labour Organisation is supposed to tackle these issues. They acknowledge this issue and incorporated the issue, of course, in their latest report, but it took years. So this issue has to be addressed at the ILO, at the UN. And of course, this has started happening, but we need more and we need accountability mechanisms, and we need some sort of remediation processes, as well for the victims of these atrocities.

Jewher Ilham 36:09

There are a few more points, I wanted to add in a few other steps that we can effectively implement the Forced Labor Prevention Act. Well, earlier I mentioned about the expanding the Entity List. And also I think we need to emphasise the need for the enforcing agencies to require companies to trace their supply chains all the way to raw material levels, and to disclose that information. Also, we know that most products that have been coming into the US that contain content produced in the Uyghur Region come through third party countries now. That is why we have been emphasizing, and we need to continue to emphasise, the need for supply chain disclosure and transparency. And in order to meet the law's goal to significantly reducing or eliminate the demand for products made with forced labour, Uyghur forced labour, we really need to, I hope to see the CBP enforcing the law not only on shipments directly from the Uyghur region, but also for example, actively on imports from some of the largest garment producing countries like Bangladesh, Vietnam and Indonesia, which they're all major destinations for yarn and fabric containing cotton from the Uyghur region. Another thing that I wanted to mention is the - we need to emphasise that the impossibility of conducting independent audits within the Uyghur region because of the nature of surveillance. And as I mentioned that growing up I had bugging devices in my own living room. And so imagine in the Uyghur region in those factories. There's a completely lack of free speech, any forms of freedom of expression in the Uyghur region. Therefore, we really need to expect this CBP to issue extremely, extremely few exceptions to the rebuttable presumption. And to because the rebuttable presumption means that they're going to assume any products coming from the Uyghur regions is tainted by forced labour unless there's clear and convincing evidence. So I think the CBP needs to maintain a very high bar on the nature of the clear and convincing evidence in this part, which the companies have to submit in order to import a product that was produced in the region. And also, I think it will be helpful if those companies to see public reporting from CBP against their competitors. Recently, CBP already told us that they have been stopping shipments at the border since the law went into effect last month. So when companies see CBP is indeed actively enforcing the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act, including on importations from third party countries, they will come into compliance more quickly.

James Cockayne 38:54

Well Jewher and Zumretay, you both lay out a huge agenda of work that's ahead. And I think as you both make clear, speaking up is at the beginning of all of that. At the centre of modern slavery and forced labour is the effort to deny somebody their personhood, their agency, their voice. I think we're incredibly lucky to have advocates such as you speaking up and speaking out on these issues, and pushing for action. So I'd just like to close by thanking you both for everything you have done and everything you continue to do, to advocate not just with generalities, but with the kind of specific ideas that you've just been laying out, a real programme for action. I think it's incumbent on all the rest of us to stand there shoulder to shoulder with you and help you see that action realised as soon as possible. So thank you again for everything you've done, and for your time and energy today.

Jewher Ilham 39:55

Thank you so much.

Zumretay Arkin 39:56

Thank you so much for having us and talking about this. important issue.

James Cockayne 40:01

Thanks for listening to this episode of Xinjiang Sanctions presented by me, James Cockayne. You can find out more about our research project at www.xinjiangsanctions.info, where you can download our study, our policy briefs and explore datasets on government, Chinese and corporate responses. Thanks to the University of Nottingham Rights Lab and to our funders, the UK Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office for their support with this research and the podcast which is available on all major platforms. Don't forget to subscribe if you're interested in accessing all the episodes from the series.

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