2 | Dancing Between Artforms with Holly Rowan

Through The Creative Door

In this episode, host Alexis sits down with Holly, a multi-talented artist with classic Renaissance vibes, whose work spans clowning, physical theatre, folk music, and a rich background in Butoh dance, jazz, ballet, contemporary dance, and musical theatre.

They discuss Holly's journey into the world of clowning and the emotional depth it brings to their artistry, their love for physical theatre as a storytelling medium, and how their background in dance and musical theatre has shaped their creative approach. Holly also opens up about their process of balancing vulnerability and humour in their performances, the connections between different art forms, and the power of folk music in telling deeply human stories.

If you’d like to see more, you can follow Holly on instagram; @ hollyrowanarts

This episode was recorded on 14 December 2024 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.

Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.

Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor

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Creative resources from Holly Rowan:

@hollyrowanarts

@hollyrowilderbeans

Let’s get social:

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TikToc: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast

CREDITS

Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor

Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel

Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel

00:09 - Alexis (Host)

Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. Owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.

Hello, holly, how are you?

00:52 - Holly (Guest)

I'm good, how are you?

00:54 - Alexis (Host)

Welcome to Through the Creative Door. Well, I'm actually through your door in your lovely home,

1:01 - Holly (Guest)

Very cute Little world, a home in Elwood.

1:05 - Alexis (Host)

I love this, I love this. But before we get started, let's dive into a little bit about you. I mean, it's not a little bit, there's a lot about you. Yes, you, oh my goodness, you are a performer, you're a musician. I feel like we, off mic, delved into clowning and that wonderful, glorious world which I'm sure we'll circle back to at some point. We also, off mic, talked about, like, all the different instruments that you played and how much music's been, you know, at the forefront of your life from a young age and all that beautifulness, um, and now, into this new season of you having, you know, folk music and you've, like, organized this collective and you're doing, yeah, all this amazing stuff in the arts and and, yeah, I'm missing so much. But like, what else are you up to?

02:09 - Holly (Guest)

Yeah, what else am I up to? I feel like I don't have any time at the moment. I feel like I do so much different things. Yeah, I'm very much in the birth canal of a reimagining of a solo show in an ensemble form at the moment and we're exploring, yeah, druidry, which is sort of the ancient way of being in the UK. It's very tied to the land, and, yeah, druidry, folklore and and being bards, um, yeah, and kind of connecting with nature, and that's that's kind of the project that we're exploring at the moment and it feels like all of the different trainings and practices that I've ever done are all coming together. It's the first time I've brought my music stuff into a theatre space. It's the first time I've brought my nature connection work into that space as well, and so, and also spirituality, it's all kind of coming together and it's also autobiographical, so like it's all kind of my personal experiences so, yeah, it's pretty.

03:28 - Alexis (Host)

And of course, all your dance experience.

03:30 - Holly (Guest)

Yes, and like movement as well. Yeah, theater and yeah, yeah, so it's all kind of coming together in one big clump.

03:36 - Alexis (Host)

I love this. yes, oh yeah, the creative way.

03:42 - Holly (Guest)

Yes, I love it.

03:54 - Alexis (Host)

You have covered so many and continue to cover so many disciplines. But what does a creative space mean to you and why?

04:09 - Holly (Guest)

Yeah, I feel like I have so many different creative spaces um, that aren't like conventional, like spaces I go to. I think um, for me I feel most creative in transit, whether I'm walking, cycling, on a train, on train, on an aeroplane. It's quite amazing. My brain just like works in a completely different way and I'm suddenly like in this like portal of kind of imagination. So I always tap into that.

04:36

I make sure I'm giving myself that space in my day, like actually carving out the space to be creative.

04:46

I feel like I have to actually make time um, otherwise being creative is like a distraction from an admin thing I'm trying to do and that doesn't feel honourable enough in a way.

04:58

Um, but yeah, recently also I've become a member of Melbourne Actors Guild, which is where we're rehearsing and it's a really nice studio in St Kilda with a little sprung floor and it's really cosy and there's a little kitchen. I feel like the ethos of that community and the different artists who are there is it just keeps me going. Being part of a collective and being able to come back to the same space and actually having that space be separate from where I live I think for me has become really important, um, for majority of my creative life I've been using my living room because I couldn't afford to rent a like a kind of big studio space, apart from when I was at uni, where you're sort of given a white wall and you're like, what am I going to do with that? And you know, um, but it's sort of given to you on a plate, I think, at uni and then afterwards take it away after you graduate.

05:57 - Alexis (Host)

Yeah, I had to, really find, uh, my own way.

06:01 - Holly (Guest)

And also another one is the forest um, yeah, getting into parks and I started dancing in parks, um, which was really overwhelming. Actually, at the beginning I felt super vulnerable, um, just dancing in public, you know, and it was a good, good practice. But, um, that also gets me really creative, like being with trees trees, yeah, and that's free, you know, I don't have to pay a lot of time to be in nature, so so I think I've really tried to find really sustainable, non money associated ways of getting that creativity. But now I've got the membership at the Guild, to be honest, it's really put everything in the right boxes for me, so it's felt a lot more possible.

06:53 - Alexis (Host)

Do you feel that there's like a frame of mind, when you step into having that external space that's not in your home, that's like conducive to creating?

07:03 - Holly (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's really um, yeah, and I think when I did my induction with Melbourne Actors Guild, we sort of spoke about that. We spoke about how, you know, this is a space for this and it's an intentional space, and when you come in, you know like have an intention and really like make it this space for your creative growth. Um, and I really take that seriously, like I really yeah, and it really works as well, like it really works to be able to say you know, this is what I'm going to do today and I'm going to commit like um, and just having a space that like has, you know, the tables and the chairs and a piano and like a mirror and all these things that could be come in handy, you know it's. It is actually really helpful. Like I've kind of made do without that for a really long time, but I feel like, yeah, it definitely is worth it yeah, I love that.

07:59 - Alexis (Host)

I also love that practice of stating an intention when you have a session or like a yeah it's.

08:07 - Holly (Guest)

I think we could all benefit from doing that yeah, yeah, and you know I arrive in that space in all kinds of different states, you know, like emotionally, and I think just being like working with that, but also being like this is what this is why we're here today, you know, and then we all kind of drop in together. I think it really helps, yeah.

08:26 - Alexis (Host)

You have just mentioned before about some of the stuff that you're working on at the moment, but I'd like to circle back to if you could pick something that you're most proud of creating and how it came about and that I'm sure is going to be a difficult one considering how many streams have created? Maybe you have one for each, one for dance, one for theater, yeah, it's really, um.

09:02 - Holly (Guest)

I also think like I sometimes don't wait long enough after I do things to reflect on what they were or how I felt about them, like I actually feel like I'm already thinking about the next thing.

09:20

But I would say I'm really proud of recently, like how I've just committed to the same themes since I've left uni. I feel like, even though performances have looked different, I feel like I've been working in a way that's been really true to myself throughout my whole practice and I've kind of allowed that to ebb and flow into like other areas. But it's it's. It feels like an accumulative kind of creative journey and I think I'm proud of how I've committed to that, like regardless of what's gone on in my life.

10:00

So I don't think I can pinpoint like a particular project that I'm like super proud of. I think it's really um, how I've kind of stuck to my guns creatively and like, um, yeah, committed to my, my own journey and what I care about and that being the forefront of, like whatever project I'm making. Um, because I think it's reaped a lot of rewards. Like, but, yeah, I think, just holding on to my creative agency, I'm just like really proud of that because it's really hard, like because you don't really get a lot of like instant gratification from that kind of thing.

10:40 - Alexis (Host)

No, no, no.

10:43 - Holly (Guest)

It's really so. I think I'm happy about that.

10:45 - Alexis (Host)

Yeah, yeah yeah, oh, I love that. What a beautiful answer. It's true like it is hard to pinpoint, but sometimes, yeah, we do need to allow a little bit of space after projects. I can really empathize with that comment of um. You know you're already before you've even finished a project, you're probably leading another three like

11:02 - Holly (Guest)

Yeah, and my mind just doesn't, like, it doesn't quite rest, like I have this very sort of excited creative elf inside my brain that is just constantly like but what if we did this and we did that? And you know, on to the next thing. It's very um hungry and um excitable and it's kind of out of wonder, like it's very innocent, but it's also like kind of tiring sometimes and like I think I have to really consciously create rest after projects, because I get on such a high, especially when it's to do with performing and I've like nailed it, I'm like we're gonna do a tour we're gonna do this and you know I'll sit and have these chats with my partner, be like I'm tired and blah, blah, blah and then two days later I'll be doing applications for festivals.

12:01

You know it's quite. I'm still working on that, yeah.

12:13

Would, you say that that would be one of the challenging things that you face. Yeah, I'd say, yeah, balancing rest and kind of go-getter-ness. I think there's not. There's not a kind of set. I mean I don't believe anything's set, but I don't think there's a very clear path set out for creatives and I don't think that there's a huge amount of like respect around. You know the way, the time and effort that actually is required, and for me, I'm a big believer in like I need to have enough money to be able to feed myself, and there's certain things that I can't compromise like, and so what I'm currently dealing with the biggest challenge is like accepting that I have a full-time creative career and I have a full-time, um Pilates and swim teaching career, like alongside, and that I'm basically working double hours. Um, I mean, luckily, with swimming and Pilates, you can't teach more than like 20 hours a week without losing your mind or your body anyway, because it's quite like physically intense um, but yeah, I think, like where I'm at is, you know, the challenge is keeping all of that fun, um, when I feel like sometimes I don't have enough time to rest or I can't afford to like go away or I can't afford to like. Um, you know, like we're coming up to Christmas now and like both myself and my partner are like casual workers and artists and we're kind of like trying to figure out how to get through Christmas, you know, like because we take a set amount of time off work, and so I think that's the challenge at the moment is like trying to.

14:07

So I think that's the challenge at the moment is like trying to find ways to keep things really sustainable.

14:11

But also, you know, I think as soon as I start putting the need to be paid for my art, like for that to be guaranteed, as soon as I start putting that first, I feel like my spiritual connection to my art kind of dies, like I think there's. It adds a pressure that I don't want. I really want it to be a space where, like, there's no stakes and there's no you know where I feel like you know what, if I'm investing money into it, it's out of love and it's not out of like fear, yeah, and so I sort of treat it like a baby. I'm like you know, this is my child and like I'm unconditionally loving this thing into the world and yeah, and but I need to be able to invest in it in a sustainable and comfortable way, I think, for it to really flow, um yeah and that's the thing with I mean kudos to people who were able to hustle and, you know, do multiple revenue streams within the arts to get that to work.

15:13 - Alexis (Host)

But it does like it makes certain decisions creatively. You make different decisions because financial dependence on that. Yeah, definitely financial dependence on that.

15:30

Yeah, so there is some kind of freedom and and I have a full-time job, a day job that I do for exactly that reason, so that when I close that laptop I open up the other one, or I sit at the piano and and I do all my other creative things, but I can at least know that a roof's over my head there, there's food in the fridge and that bit of needs is just covered and I can just play.

15:50 - Holly (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, and I think if I have that, then I can be more creative. You know, yeah, and I think this year it's been particularly more difficult because I've had some like health challenges come through where I've had to like put more money into that as well as the creative projects. It's been a real stretch, like particularly the last few months. But you know, I think the more I can like dig deep and kind of find the ways and means to provide for that, you know it's going to really help me like, yeah, and I think teaching Pilates is great because, honestly, I don't think about my classes before I go in and I get to make playlists and I just move about with people and I just I find it so how glorious. Yeah, I don't really get stressed by it at all. You know, I kind of just go in and and that's what I need.

I need a job where I kind of don't need to think too much like about what I'm doing, so that I can dream more yeah,

16:50 - Alexis (Host)

I find, when I'm driving or running, all my creative juices it's like what you were saying about, like the transport or whatever it's like. Yeah, if you do jobs that are too strong, yeah, your creative juices won't yeah, flow,

16:58 - Holly (Guest)

if you have to think about work at home, that's not for me. I want to be able to just clock off and be able to do my other life.

17:15 - Alexis (Host)

Yeah, your other loves, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're creating, do you have an object or thing that you can't live without?

17:27 - Holly (Guest)

This is an interesting one, I feel like for me, I don't have much of a relationship with objects.

17:39 - Alexis (Host)

No, lucky socks. No, I feel very ephemeral as a human being. I feel very ephemeral.

17:43 - Holly (Guest)

as a human being, I think I had a phase where I collected leaves and feathers and bits of bark and I'd have them in my pockets.

17:59 - Alexis (Host)

You sound like one of those birds that go and collect all these things and put them in their nest, except your pockets are your nest.

18:05 - Holly (Guest)

Yeah, literally, and I kind of just walk around with them and like go and collect all these things and like put them in their nest except your pockets are your nest. Yeah, literally, and I kind of just walk around with them and like you know all like little acorns or like random things that I find, and then I'll find them in my bag, like I don't know, and they're always with me, but I don't really think about them. Like I'm so kind of consumed by the moment and like whatever interaction I'm having, um, yeah, and also I lose everything. I find it really hard to like hold on to things and like not lose them. Like I leave my water bottles everywhere, so I've just accepted that I have to drink out of water fountains now.

18:40 - Alexis (Host)

Maybe that's good that you're like picking up bits of nature, because then when you leave it somewhere, it goes back into nature

18:49 - Holly (Guest)

exactly, yeah, yeah, low stakes, but also it's kind of interesting and pretty and you, you find different things every day because it all changes, like, like, you'll see a leaf on the floor one day and then it will just like not be there the next day, and it's not because I've taken it, but it's because, like, it's gone somewhere else

19:05 - Alexis (Host)

you you like I took it and then I put it somewhere and I can't remember where I put it

19:07 - Holly (Guest)

yeah yeah, like I don't know that it's kind of more part of like a cyclical thing, imps and flows yeah, so yeah, but I'd say I'm actually really unsentimental when it comes to objects and I kind of don't give them very much power. I'm much more of like an energy person. Yeah, like, yeah, I think that's. That's where I'm at

19:31 - Alexis (Host)

I love it. Yeah, the beach, ocean being in bodies of water. If that could be my object, that would be mine. Something about that energy

19:40 - Holly (Guest)

yeah, yeah so good, and that could be an interesting warm-up, isn't it? Just go into the sea, like the space turns into the ocean and what happens to you?

19:51 - Alexis (Host)

like yeah yeah, just bob around, float around, yeah, literally, if you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative, what would it be?

20:10 - Holly (Guest)

yeah, I'd say don't pigeonhole yourself, like unless it feels right, unless you're like, oh my god, I'm just, uh, this particular type of singer and this is what I do and I'm, you know, in love with it. But I'd just say like, um, yeah, kind of explore things that perhaps are a bit edgy or a bit uncomfortable, um, and find out why. Um, I think, like I'm definitely sort of a jack of all trades, master of none kind of person, and like that's not the full quote, you know what's the full quote?

20:52 - Alexis (Host)

you'll need to google it after this, because jack of all trades, master of none. The next bit's something about how it's still better than only being a master of one something like that so yeah yeah and I think you know I'm sorry to listeners for me wrong quoting that, but it's something like that still better to have dabbled in lots of things yeah,

20:58 - Holly (Guest)

I think um, yeah, for me there's something society like, when I'm speaking to people who maybe don't have much relationship with the arts and they kind of know ballet and musical theatre and everything like that, and I think there's this sort of air of you know you need to choose. I think, especially like coming out of like university, for example, you know you need to have a plan and you need to choose. And I think my life trajectory has been very different and I think it's taken me a really long time to grow into it, basically like the whole of my 20s to sort of grow into the fact that I need to be doing multiple things and I work in a very multidisciplinary way. And that's who I am as an artist. And I think like, the more people we can allow to do that the better.

22:11

So I think like, rather than um, trying to squeeze yourself into other people's boxes, I'd say like, ask how people can accommodate you as an artist instead, like um and yeah, and also, you know, like, for me that's led me into like a director to territory, like, because I have a like, a particular way of working that I really enjoy and I find it more challenging to be directed because I want to do my kind of creative thing. But I think it's really important for me to be directed and to be in ensemble spaces where I'm kind of not leading it, um, but I'd say that's less comfortable for me but I do it like I make myself do it because it's really important for my kind of creative learning and I think, yeah, just kind of being, um, allowing yourself to go into all the different roles, even production team, you know, producing I've self-produced and I've done some stage managing stuff and seeing the art from different perspectives and different roles I think can be really.

23:16

It just really helps, like you become a person who can work with others in different ways in different capacities

23:26 - Alexis (Host)

you have some sort of capacity, understanding of where they're coming from

23:30 - Holly (Guest)

yeah, because I think being in the arts is really about community like hugely yeah, it's super, it's a super important part of it. Um, and I think you know, I've had to learn so much about myself and my tendencies and like the way I connect with people and I've had to like really kind of work on that and work on triggers and all these different things that can happen in rehearsal spaces and like, um, yeah, and I think just allowing yourself to go through different phases and kind of explore different things is really important.

24:07 - Alexis (Host)

I love that. If someone wanted to do what you do in all of the ways such a loaded question, the ways, such a loaded question. But what resources or advice in regards to training, um, any of that kind of stuff, if someone wanted to, you know, develop their creative process? What advice would you give about that um?

24:36 - Holly (Guest)

Go to another country.

24:43 - Alexis (Host)

Oh, yeah off mic we talked about you.

You got a opportunity to go to india yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:49 - Holly (Guest)

Like, I think for me, my biggest uh and best kind of creative experiences have been in global majority communities. So, um, yeah, and I think that's because in like the main art form that I'm kind of interested in the moment, which is theatre, like it's about humanity, and I think we can get a really skewed um idea of that if we're sort of relying on eurocentric educational systems and I think, getting out um to the global south, I would say actually like and and really kind of challenging the eurocentric mindset. Um, I think for me that really gave way to some super interesting stuff that I never would have found otherwise. And I think also going into creative spaces where you feel really comfortable and seen, and if there aren't spaces where you are, where you can have that, to find somewhere, I think it's always possible. Um, I know for me I needed to get out of London and out of the competition and and the kind of yeah, it's just very competitive and very like snap snap now. Now, you know, and India

26:18

India's just was just, it was still. We achieved so much, but it was through such a different approach and like learning that we can we don't have to know everything we can actually fully embody the creative process and allow it to take us on a journey and like, yes, we can refine things and we can. You know, got good critical thinking and all this stuff, but it's, it was just a lot more human to me, like and also working with different cultures and different ideas of the world. Um, it just feels so important right now, like to consider that in work, um, yeah, so I just think, yeah, get out of your country, go to another country, um, and immerse yourself in in other people's way of thinking and doing and making.

27:16 - Alexis (Host)

Oh, such wise words, such wise words. One extra question If you could hear another creative come on this podcast, who would it be and why?

27:31 - Holly (Guest)

Do you know what it would be? My dance teacher from India? Ooh yeah, Prashant Mori. He's so wise, like just probably like the most humble person I've ever met in my life, and he's super quiet but when he speaks he's like profound, everything's profound. Yeah, it's gold, and um, yeah, I don't know. I just think he would add something really incredible, yeah, cool to the podcast. Um, yeah, he's in india. He like teaches all over India, but he has like the most incredible lifestyle oh, did him, so I just have to go to india then yeah go find him.

28:18

Go find him. Yeah, I don't know, like he just popped up. Yeah, I mean so many people like I feel so lucky, like to know, um, yeah, so many different humans who would be amazing to talk about their creative life, and I think you know. It just goes to show like, as creatives, we have such different ways of doing things and we're all kind of important. You know, like, and um, everyone would be able to say so many different things and have so many different experiences based on their creative journey yeah, that's so.

28:56 - Alexis (Host)

Oh, holly, this was such a beautiful chat. Thank you so much for gracing us with your time and presence. This was so lovely.

29:09

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom. Forward slash through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.