Music, film and authenticity for social change with Sishii and Nolita Mvunelo

THE CLUB OF ROME PODCAST

Music, art, and media have always played powerful roles in social movements that created long-lasting societal change. Will the 21st century be any different? How can we inspire a generation to liberate their future actively?

In this episode, Nolita Mvunelo is joined by Sishii, an award-winning singer and activist. Together, they dive into the role of art and music in inspiring young Africans to make a difference in the face of adversity. They question why more artists do not address the climate change crisis and other systemic issues while reflecting on the importance of art in raising awareness, inspiring action, and shaping the future.

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Full Transcript:

Nolita: We kind of need a revolution. Welcome to a special edition of The Club of Rome podcast exploring how we can work together across generations, across continents, across contexts, to mobilize action for a regenerative future. I am Nolita Mvnelo, Programme Manager of the Club of Rome, and in this episode, I had a conversation with someone I am proud to call a friend, Sishii. Actor, R&B, singer heard by millions, based in South Africa and changing the world. Against a backdrop of all the concerns we are facing, we discussed the role of art and music in inspiring young Africans to make a difference in the face of adversity. Thank you so much for joining me and joining me in my world of big picture and asking big questions and asking about the future of humanity and society, but also the future of us as Africans. Other people won't know this, but you're partly responsible for why we're doing this limited series, because you're the one who said, "Yo, you we always have these interesting conversations. Why don't we, why don't you sit down and try to have more conversations with more interesting people?" So I'm very grateful for you taking the time to chat with me today.

Sishii: Thank you for having me and thanks for doing it.

Nolita: I have, like, a handful of questions that also, again, are very reminiscent of some of the conversations we've had. The first one being, we always share a sense of, like, these concerns about the future of South Africa, the future of Africa, and our place in making a difference in those concerns.

Sishii: Yeah. I mean, a lot of the time the conversation is about leadership. It's about what we as young people are doing currently for, you know, our country, our continent, our world, and what we're trying to do to make things better for this world. And I'd say that the concern, it's like, there's so many facets of life, obviously, there's the economy, there's politics. I'm an artist, so there's the future of the arts. And we kind of cover a lot of those subjects, you know, in the conversations that we have, but I think in all of those subjects, the primary concern is what we're doing to make things better, because we recognize that something is, something's definitely wrong.

Nolita: When you say what we're doing, do you feel like there is enough opportunity to do things?

Sishii: I think a lot of our conversation is about how we feel like those who do have the opportunity to do something aren't actually doing anything, and those who don't have the opportunity to do anything are not even really considering what possible changes there could be. And in terms of what I'm doing, I'm just doing what I love, which is being an artist and inspiring other artists. Inspiring, you know, young people, according to them, also, this is not, I'm not saying I'm an inspiration. I have been called one on a few occasions. Yeah, inspiring African artists to pursue their dreams of being artists and inspiring Africans in my little corner of the world, which is South Africa, to just believe in themselves, to believe that they can come from circumstances that aren't necessarily great and make a change in the world and try and do positive in the world. So yeah, I think that's what I'm currently up to, and I hope I'm doing well at it.

Nolita: Do you think you have a sense of what does it take to inspire someone who feels that they don't have enough opportunity to rise to leadership or to make like, like groundbreaking, world changing art.

Sishii: It's weird, but like, as an artist, it's when your intention is to inspire, and you create from wanting a certain reaction, right from certain people, it doesn't really work as well as when you're being true to yourself, it doesn't work as well as telling your story in the best way you know how with whatever it is that you have and so what I've learned is this road for me, has just been about storytelling and using whatever resources I can find, gather people. This is a people's business, yeah, just essentially using all of that to tell my story. And in the process, I found that there are people who find that inspiring. Because if you have gone through hardship and you're talking about it, I'm pretty sure there's someone out there, at least one, I mean, there's billions of people in the world, and surely there's one, if you just stay true to who you are. So that's been my journey of what I've been trying to do, and I've found that I've inspired people in the process. But I didn't kind of start my journey saying, oh, I want to inspire people. I just wanted to express myself. And I found that a lot of people just want to express themselves, and they really struggle to do so.

Nolita:I think you've hit, like, a very important point on authenticity. Because, like, as I started a conversation, I said, welcome to my world, this, podcast. But also a lot of the things that the Club of Rome and the international contract are working on are very much concerned about the question of leadership, but leadership, specifically when it comes to climate change and sustainability and the types of decisions that people are making. You make a point about storytelling and also authenticity being important for how to bring forth that messaging and that voice, but very often, I feel that it doesn't land. But from your perspective, when it comes to like, the concerns about climate and the risks that we're facing, do you feel that it's being, the storytelling is being effective, and if you do what is effective about it? If you feel that it's not being effective, what do you think could be done to improve it, from your perspective as an artist?

Sishii: So, I've not found a lot of artists talking about climate change, it's interesting. I don't think we take it as seriously as it is. I really don't. And as a result of that, I don't see much art talking about that, and I don't see a lot of people my age talking about climate change or even really thinking about it. There are people who think it's a lie, there are people who think, and a lot of the time, you ask those people why they think it's a lie, they go, "Ah, it doesn't make sense". "Well have you read anything about it?" It's like, "No, I haven't actually read anything about it. I just, I just think it's a lie." So there's this weird kind of choosing of sides without having any information on which side you're choosing, but saying, okay, it seems like there's a side I have to choose, so I'm just going to choose the side without actually figuring out why I'm choosing said side. Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question.

Nolita:Actually, I feel like, as you're speaking, in my mind, I immediately thought, imagine a song about climate and like, a song about climate and like, would it hit like, the Spotify 1 million streams or Apple Music, you know, like, would it? Would it hit?

Sishii: I mean, the only person I can think of who ever did stuff like that was like, Michael Jackson.

Nolita: Oh yeah, heal the world or something.

Sishii: Yeah I mean, this is my kind of perspective on life in general right now, which is that I think we have become a lot more self-absorbed, not necessarily in a negative way, but a lot of the time it does show up negatively. And that when it comes to a change that inspires or affects more people than yourself, you know, or more people that do not actually include yourself, you know, we're not finding people not being interested in doing that anymore.

Nolita: When I imagine like a challenge that's as big as climate, right, which requires collaboration on such a broad level, but also requires collaboration across different cultures and perspectives. One of the best ways to share values and perspectives in culture is in our art, right? So the role of art in making sure that everyone is involved in this big group project is incredibly significant. But for some reason, we are struggling to imagine that we could get a million Spotify streams on a song about climate. So how do we make it, yeah, so how do we make it happen?

Sishii: Right?

Nolita: Is there something about maybe it's where from, where we understand the innovation comes from. Like, not to quote him, but we know who said, listen to the kids bro. And he was making a very specific point about the tastemakers are young people. In your creative process, is there any like consultation that you do about like with the people who listen to your music and care about your music? Do you ever try to get a sense of like, this is what is interesting. These are the topics people are listening to. Or is it very much like me and my creative process.

Sishii: I would love to say absolutely not. I would love to be an artist who's so, you know, self-sufficient that people's opinions don't actually matter to me. I do subconsciously, I definitely subconsciously digest what people are thinking about and talking about, and sometimes it does affect my music. I'm trying to make that less of a thing, now. I think I'm doing better at that, but it's really hard. I think the kind of thing about being an artist is like, you've really got to be self-sufficient. Don't care about what people think. Don't care about what people are talking about. It's very weird, because I believe that if this was, I don't know, 50 years ago, and every artist was talking about climate change, and every artist was talking about how the world is, you know, "Oh, no", you know. I do feel like I'd be saying about that too, maybe perhaps, but I just yeah, I think now the goal is to talk about yourself and what you're going through and your own emotions, and so I have tried to not engage what people are thinking about my, you know, about my music and their opinions. So, yeah, it's not, it's not really collaborative. It's not like I collaborate with people to try and find out what the world is thinking about and then make songs that are in line with that. I, no.

Nolita: Maybe it's time? Like, even like political music, you know, like in the last election, did it pass your mind?

Sishii: But the issue is that when I was very collaborative with people, as in, you know, hearing their opinions, a lot of my music was actually a lot more self-absorbed. Because that is what's, you know, if we're talking about, like, listening to the kids, the kids right now are primarily talking about, hey, I'm, like, going through this. Hey, there's this that happened with this person and this girl, or whatever. You know, my peers, the people I make music with, no one's ever brought up climate change. And so it's like even so if I were to listen to what people are talking about so that I can make music about what people are talking about, it would actually take me further away from politics and climate change. I found that it's my own proactivity in wanting to be involved in politics, in voting, and that has made me go, No, man, I've actually got to be more concerned with what's happening in the world.

Nolita: Is it fair to say your your genre, is it like more pop, or would you say, like, what's your primary? Because, I mean.

Sishii: Alternative.

Nolita: Alternative, yeah. Because I was going to say, like, a lot of South African jazz does speak about politics, right and the state of affairs, but then again, like on that whole listen to the kids bro. Part of it, is how many of our peers actually listen to South African jazz? Yeah, there's not that many people, or even just the tradition overall over time, like in the 60s and stuff, there was all of this, but it was called protest. It's retrospectively, it's called protest music, and not just, like, music of the time. Yeah, and so, I guess, like, does that? Do you ever think about that, like, as an artist, of how will I be categorized over time, with the message, message that I've had and how people have received it?

Sishii: Interesting. That's a deep question. I've never, I've never thought about that. I've actually never thought about how I'll be remembered, I guess. Yeah, but I don't think they were making protest music. I think they were making music. They were just telling the truth about what was going on. And then now, in hindsight, we're like, oh, that was protest music. Oh, that's, you know, yeah, I've not thought about how I'd how be remembered, but I remember once trying to write a song about the state of politics. It was so bad. It was about such a bad song. It was so bad.

Nolita: Why don't you release it? Let's do like a limited release, like a Club of Rome special.

Sishii: I'm an artist at the end of the day, I want to make good music first. And so there's this weird kind of dilemma I find myself in where, when I am talking about the things that really, really matter, I'm like, this doesn't, this kind of sounds, I don't know, tacky, corny, I don't know, you know?

Nolita: Like a sermon?

Sishii: Yeah, like a sermon, you know? And there's even this, this category of rappers called corny rappers whowill talk about, like, serious issues. You know, we have, like, a Kendrick Lamar who is -

Nolita: Was going to say

Sishii: Phenomenal, right? He's able, he found that, like, kind of, I'm going to talk about the things that really matter, and I'm also going to talk about and I'm also going to make good music. And it's so rare to find that, because a lot of people who do talk about the things that matter, you're like, “This is not really a good song”.

Nolita: Yeah, because then you're not a rapper. You're a conscious rapper, if you're, if you don't have the, if you don't have the skill level of a Kendrick to, you know, to speak about, like, significant things, you know, looping some jazz, etc. Then it goes from, you know, Pulitzer Prize winning to you're on the conscious rap playlist on Spotify, which has significantly less plays than like the Atlanta Hip Hop.

Sishii: Exactly

Nolita: Yeah, okay, I get what you mean. But you're not only a musician Nto, you're also an actor. So, movies and TV shows about politics and climate and all of the things that we're concerned about, is there opportunity there? Does it suffer from the same struggles that you were speaking about when it comes to music?

Sishii: So interestingly enough, in South Africa, things that like films, series, whatever that has to do with crime, it's like always going to be the top hit, you know, and we're aware of the fact that crime is a serious issue in our country. What I found on that side of things is that this young well, let me not say this whole generation, I don't know the whole generation, but the kind of pocket, the circle I'm in, of people I know, of filmmakers, are kind of tired of that. They're kind of tired of, why does every South African film have to be about, you know, the serious issues, and that's the only time we're ever taken seriously. And as it's like, even the feeling that, like as Africans, we're only rarely taken seriously by the West when we're talking about the plight of Africans, but there's a lot of joy in being an African that when that is spoken about, it doesn't get as much attention, because it's like, no, no, you're sad, you're, you know, angry because of crime and poverty, you know. So, it's very interesting how there are real issues in the world that need to be tackled in art. But what we're finding is, over time, people are deliberately trying to not tackle those things because they're tired of only being taken seriously when talking about those issues. So that's what I found on the film side of things.

Nolita: As you're speaking, I was thinking about Black Panther, and remember how excited we were, yeah, when Black Panther was coming in. And I guess, like, if I tried to, like, put deep thought into it, was like, one of the first few times where it was movie about African identity that was actually more about, like the success and the opportunity, and not a movie about, as you're saying, organized crime, which is typically the stuff that comes out of.

Sishii: Yeah, yeah

Nolita: The stuff that comes out of there. And I guess, like the US equivalent is, like, not every movie has to be about Jim Crow and slavery, you know, yeah, like, black people are capable of being in movies about being at an office, because we have jobs too. Yeah, yeah. But okay, let me get out of the radical part, because next thing I'll speak for 10 minutes about that. And I think I mean, but Black Panther was what, like six to eight years ago, and since then, there has been some. Yeah, we're that old, yeah.

Sishii: Please don't remind me. Oh, my word that was...

Nolita: Yeah. And I mean, there has been some shift somewhat. But again, I'll take you back to I'll say my world, and say outside of, like, the DiCaprio documentaries and the Zac Efron documentaries, etc. Oh, there was also The Boy Who Chased the Wind that was interesting. But, like, I don't yet see a mainstreaming of the challenges that come with, like, nature crisis and climate and the storytelling that comes there. But I think it also has like an effect of, like the listen to the kids bro part and the authenticity we were speaking about on whose stories are we telling?

Sishii: Yeah, on that, on that. No, what I have heard from some people right is we've got more serious issues to deal with in Africa then than the nature crisis. Yeah, we like, I don't have time to think about nature right now, because how am I going to feed my child? How am I going to think about, you know, I don't, I don't care about. How much you know, I wish I knew the names of the chemicals. I don't even know the names of chemicals that are ruining the world - but I don't have time to think about that, because, you know, I'm starving. I need a meal tonight. My child needs to eat tonight, so that's the least of my worries.

Nolita: But okay, we're from Durban, and for context, Durban is a city on the east coast of South Africa, and it's a very tropical city, so we get a lot of rain. And so flooding has become, you know, a biannual event, like twice a year there'll be, like, catastrophic floods in the city. So Durban is one of those few places where even if you met a homeless person in the streets and you said, Hey, climate change, they would probably be like, Yeah, climate change, hey. So that's an example of where this issue is, like, prevalent and pressing for everyone, young, old, etc. People are losing their homes and all that sort of stuff. But I'm yet to see a telenovela about a family that went through a flooding crisis, and we've been having these for over five years. So, you know, maybe that's your next role. Your next role is young man from-

Sishii: I could definitely find that movie for sure. I mean, it's about my home town. You're right though, like you're you're very right that it's happening in our own hometowns, like this is happening at home. I'm hearing about this every single year, multiple times a year, and it's just like, yeah, it'll, you know, it'll pass, it'll pass, it'll pass. And yeah, I think that's concerning, yeah.

Nolita: And we're full circle into the first point you made about leadership and the opportunities for leadership, and where young people believe that there's an opportunity for them to lead. Because, again, on the Durban example, we also know that, like the two examples that you gave, that those who have opportunities are using them, but probably not for these types of concerns, and then you have everyone else who's not aware of what opportunities are available to them. And I guess that was a statement, but my question is more about from your perspective, how do we listen better to the kids, but give more opportunities to the kids to share their perspectives and maybe make a better Durban, South Africa and Africa for themselves.

Sishii: I do think that this all kind of starts with self, right? Like, I know that I could be using my platform to talk about these things, but I'm thinking about, you know, my bottom line, you know, and I think that's what it comes down to is each one of us who has the platform and the opportunity to give opportunities, instead of thinking about our own bottom lines providing opportunities for others. I think that's where it stems from. That's where it starts. But there's the short term and the long term kind of payoffs that I'm always thinking if I'm going to be concerned with what I'm saying today, that can hopefully have a long term effect on people by providing them opportunities, I'm going to lose my opportunities. So that's, that's where it all starts from. But I do, I do think that there's also a serious mental shift that needs to take place. I mean, we've spoken about this before, where there is a kind of general pessimism in our generation, including myself. I mean, I've admitted to this to you as well before that. I'm like, Dude, why? Why are you so motivated to make a difference in the world? You know, personally, I'm like, bro, it's all going down, and I don't, you know, I think that we can try and but I don't think anything's going to get better. So I guess it is shifting that perspective.

Nolita: A quote that I read yesterday was Wangari Maathai's Noble lecture speech where she says her wish for young people is that they invest in the long term. So like to the point you're making about, like, you know, the short term, term gains. There's long term things we could gain? Yeah, the investing in the long term part is so important, because at the end of the day, then what is it for? Final question for you, what gives you hope? Because for me, my faith has a lot to do with it. I kind of keep a perspective that I am here for a reason. I have the opportunities I have, for some reason.

Sishii: Yeah, my response is believing in God, believing in that there's something greater than this world. Because there have been a lot more times in my life where I've been more pessimistic about this world and I'm optimistic. I still struggle with my optimism in this world. I'm like, I don't, you know, you know. I don't think people are going to get any less self, you know, absorbed, even when I look at myself. And so I'm like, I've got to believe there's something greater than this that's ensuring that everything is where it should be. Everything is in the right place right now, and we're okay, because there's a greater purpose for everything else. So yes, my belief from God.

Nolita: Thank you Sishi and thanks for listening to the Club of Rome podcast. For more information, please visit ClubofRome.org