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المحتوى المقدم من Nate Hagens. يتم تحميل جميع محتويات البودكاست بما في ذلك الحلقات والرسومات وأوصاف البودكاست وتقديمها مباشرة بواسطة Nate Hagens أو شريك منصة البودكاست الخاص بهم. إذا كنت تعتقد أن شخصًا ما يستخدم عملك المحمي بحقوق الطبع والنشر دون إذنك، فيمكنك اتباع العملية الموضحة هنا https://ar.player.fm/legal.
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The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens

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المحتوى المقدم من Nate Hagens. يتم تحميل جميع محتويات البودكاست بما في ذلك الحلقات والرسومات وأوصاف البودكاست وتقديمها مباشرة بواسطة Nate Hagens أو شريك منصة البودكاست الخاص بهم. إذا كنت تعتقد أن شخصًا ما يستخدم عملك المحمي بحقوق الطبع والنشر دون إذنك، فيمكنك اتباع العملية الموضحة هنا https://ar.player.fm/legal.
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens explores money, energy, economy, and the environment with world experts and leaders to understand how everything fits together, and where we go from here.
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299 حلقات

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The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens

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Manage series 3309305
المحتوى المقدم من Nate Hagens. يتم تحميل جميع محتويات البودكاست بما في ذلك الحلقات والرسومات وأوصاف البودكاست وتقديمها مباشرة بواسطة Nate Hagens أو شريك منصة البودكاست الخاص بهم. إذا كنت تعتقد أن شخصًا ما يستخدم عملك المحمي بحقوق الطبع والنشر دون إذنك، فيمكنك اتباع العملية الموضحة هنا https://ar.player.fm/legal.
The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens explores money, energy, economy, and the environment with world experts and leaders to understand how everything fits together, and where we go from here.
  continue reading

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Over the last few decades, humanity has globalized everything – from food production and supply chains to communication and information systems – making countries, businesses, and individuals more connected and reliant on each other than ever before. Yet, with this increased interconnectedness comes more complexity and fragility. What have we lost through the globalization process, and how might we fortify our communities by investing in local economies? In this episode, Nate is joined by Helena Norberg-Hodge – a leading voice in the localization movement – to explore the deep systemic challenges posed by economic globalization. Together, they examine how the global growth model has fueled environmental degradation, social fragmentation, and cultural erosion, and why shifting toward localized economies might be one of the most effective (and overlooked) responses to our predicament. Drawing on decades of firsthand experience, Helena invites us to question the assumptions underpinning our globalized lives and imagine a future rooted in local reconnection. How might we rekindle a sense of enough in a world that constantly tells us we need more? As globalization begins to retreat, what small but meaningful steps can we take to relocalize our lives and reconnect with each other? And what kind of futures might be possible if we centered our communities around systems that regenerate the very places we call home? (Conversation recorded on May 7th, 2025) About Helena Norberg-Hodge: Linguist, author and filmmaker, Helena Norberg-Hodge is the founder and director of the international non-profit organisation, Local Futures. She is also a pioneer of the new economy movement, the convenor of World Localization Day , and an expert in understanding the ecological, social, and psychological effects of the global economy on diverse cultures. Additionally, Helena is the author of several books, including ‘Ancient Futures: Learning from Ladakh’ , an eye-opening tale of tradition and change in Ladakh, or “Little Tibet”. Together with a film of the same title , Ancient Futures has been translated into more than 40 languages, and sold half a million copies. Helena has continued to produce several other short films, including the award-winning documentary ‘The Economics of Happiness’ . Helena specialized in linguistics, including studies at the University of London and with Noam Chomsky at MIT. Her work, spanning almost half a century, has received the support of a wide range of international figures, including Jane Goodall, HH the Dalai Lama, HRH Prince Charles and Indira Gandhi. Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. — Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
Living in a period increasingly fraught by various crises and risks, it is more necessary than ever to be able to metabolize anxiety into something useful. But what about at a cultural level? The behaviors that the current economic superstructure rewards cannot form the basis of what emerges from its ashes…we require new ways of thinking and living that put us in closer relationship to one another and the planet around us. In a system structured to serve as a dissipative structure, how do we plant the seeds of something that is more resilient and cooperative? In this week’s Frankly, Nate addresses how we, as humans, might adapt and take on characteristics that will allow us to face the coming challenges of our world head-on. Through a framework of “cultural mitochondria,” Nate explores 10 traits that will help to shape the way we move through and address the human predicament. These are not far off ideals to think about once, then forget about. These are behaviors that require deep and regular practice, perhaps one of the most important tasks of our time. How can we become more grounded and regulated in our bodies in order to become agents of change? What does it mean to metabolize grief into resilience and action? And how do we expand empathy and humility for one another as we grapple with increasingly isolating conditions? (Recorded June 1, 2025) Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
While most industries are embracing artificial intelligence, citing profit and efficiency, the tech industry is pushing AI into education under the guise of ‘inevitability’. But the focus on its potential benefits for academia eclipses the pressing (and often invisible) risks that AI poses to children – including the decline of critical thinking, the inability to connect with other humans, and even addiction. With the use of AI becoming more ubiquitous by the day, we must ask ourselves: can our education systems adequately protect children from the potential harms of AI? In this episode, Nate is joined once again by philosopher of education Zak Stein to delve into the far-reaching implications of technology – especially artificial intelligence – on the future of education. Together, they examine the risks of over-reliance on AI for the development of young minds, as well as the broader impact on society and some of the biggest existential risks. Zak explores the ethical challenges of adopting AI into educational systems, emphasizing the enduring value of traditional skills and the need for a balanced approach to integrating technology with human values (not just the values of tech companies). What steps are available to us today – from interface design to regulation of access – to limit the negative effects of Artificial Intelligence on children? How can parents and educators keep alive the pillars of independent thinking and foundational learning as AI threatens them? Ultimately, is there a world where Artificial Intelligence could become a tool to amplify human connection and socialization – or might it replace them entirely? (Conversation recorded on May 12th, 2025) About Zak Stein: Dr. Zak Stein is a philosopher of education, as well as a Co-founder of the Center for World Philosophy and Religion . He is also the Co-founder of Civilization Research Institute , the Consilience Project , and Lectica, Inc . He is the author of dozens of published papers and two books, including Education in a Time Between Worlds. Zak recieved his EdD from Harvard University. Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
In a world grappling with converging crises, we often look outward – for new tech, new markets, new distractions. But the deeper issue lies within: our relationship with energy, nature, and each other. What if we step back far enough to see human civilization itself as an organism that is growing without a plan? In this week’s Frankly — adapted from a recent TED talk like presentation (called Ignite) — Nate outlines how humanity is part of a global economic superorganism, driven by abundant energy and the emergent properties of billions of humans working towards the same goal. Rather than focusing on surface-level solutions, Nate invites us to confront the underlying dynamics of consumption and profit. It’s a perspective that defies soundbite culture — requiring not a slogan, but a deeper reckoning with how the world actually works. These are not quick-fix questions, but the kinds that demand slow thinking in a world hooked on speed. What if infinite growth on a finite planet isn't just unrealistic – but the root of our unfolding crisis? In a system designed for more, how do we begin to value enough? And at this civilizational crossroads, what will you choose to nurture: power, or life? (Recorded May 26, 2025) Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
For all of human history, the oceans and the life within them have remained a stable and fundamental part of Earth as we know it. Yet, for the past few decades, fisheries and scientists alike have observed massive migrations in marine ecosystems unlike anything we’ve ever witnessed. What is driving these unprecedented movements, and how are they rippling out to affect every aspect of life In this conversation, Nate is joined by marine ecologist Malin Pinsky, whose decades of research shed light on the dramatic migrations of marine species due to rising ocean temperatures. Malin breaks down the science behind these changes – from declining oxygen levels pushing fish toward the poles, to the cascading impacts on intricate marine food webs, as well as the growing threat of localized extinctions among key fishery species. How has a cultural disconnect from the importance of biodiversity and the interdependence of life led to such a drastic impact on the function of our oceans? What do these changes mean for humanity, including impacts on global food security and geopolitical stability? Finally, could reconnecting with the ocean’s abundant, diverse ecosystems help us reduce our impact on these deep, blue pillars of life? (Conversation recorded on April 22nd, 2025) More TGS Ocean Episodes About Malin Pinsky: Malin Pinsky is an Associate Professor in the Department of Ecology & Evolutionary Biology at the University of California Santa Cruz with expertise in the adaptation of ocean life to climate change and applications to ocean conservation and fisheries. His more than 120 publications have appeared in Science, Nature, and other journals. He is a Fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, an Earth Leadership Fellow, and an Early Career Fellow of the Ecological Society of America. Pinsky serves on advisory boards for the Beijer Institute of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, the non-profit Oceana, and the Chewonki Foundation. He grew up exploring tidepools and mountains in Maine. Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
In a world increasingly mediated by machines, the boundaries between human identity and artificial intelligence are beginning to blur. While some embrace the tools of the future, others quietly resist, preserving ways of being that have endured for millennia. What happens when AI becomes not just a tool but a mirror? In this week’s Frankly, Nate introduces a new typology of how AI may shape human behavior in the years ahead. He outlines eight archetypes reflecting our varied relationships to artificial intelligence—ranging from resistance and discipline to dependence and immersion. Rather than focusing on technological capability, he explores what these categories reveal about human psychology, culture, and adaptation. Which of these types do you see in yourself and those around you? What will it take to retain our analog roots in a digital age? And in a world increasingly shaped by algorithms, what kind of human will you choose to be? (Recorded May 20, 2025) Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Help shape the future of TGS by taking our 10-minute Learning & Training Survey --- Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
It’s no secret that massive change is needed to restore our planet’s vital ecosystems. Permaculture offers practices to restore local environments by focusing on creating sustainable agricultural systems that mimic patterns found in nature. But how might permaculture initiatives go beyond agriculture to transform some of our largest-scale problems, such as social cohesion, climate stabilization, and even human migration? In this conversation, Nate sits down with permaculture educator Andrew Millison to discuss the Great Green Wall project, a massive ecological initiative aimed at combating desertification in the Sahel region of Africa. They explore the causes of the Sahara Desert's expansion, the simple but impactful permaculture techniques being employed to restore land, and the significant ecological and nutritional benefits resulting from these efforts. This conversation highlights the collaboration between local communities and global organizations, emphasizing permaculture’s potential to transform lives and ecosystems around the world. How can innovative permaculture techniques aid in helping our most complex ecological challenges? In what ways have land restoration projects reduced conflict between people in resource scarce areas? Furthermore, what kinds of responses – both grassroots and top-down – are needed to implement these practices on a large scale? About Andrew Millison: Andrew Millison is an innovative educator, storyteller and designer. He founded the Permaculture Design education program at Oregon State University (OSU) in 2009. At OSU Andrew serves as an Education Director and Senior Instructor who offers over 25 years of experience, and a playful approach to regenerative design. Andrew is also a documentary videographer who travels the world documenting epic permaculture projects in places such as India, Egypt, Mexico, Cuba, and throughout the US. You can view his videos and series on his YouTube channel . Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
In a culture driven by achievement, autonomy, and digital distraction, our sense of identity is often shaped by performance and external validation. Yet beneath this surface, many carry unseen psychological imprints from childhood and culture alike. What happens when we begin to examine these layers and imagine healthier ones? In this week’s Frankly, Nate explores the themes of attention, awareness, and the psychological impacts of modern life. Through poetry and reflection, he examines the pull toward validation and control that shapes many of our behaviors. Building on the Ideal Parent Figure Protocol developed by Dr. Daniel P. Brown, he expands the concept to explore what ideal cultural and ecological figures might offer in addressing our deeper collective needs. What are the qualities of a healthy culture -- one rooted in belonging, continuity, and shared purpose? How can we reconnect with ecological kinship and wisdom? And finally, where is your branch of stillness, the one place the pendulum of this world doesn't reach? (Recorded May 12, 2025) Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
There is only one known planet in the universe capable of meeting humanity's needs – Earth. And yet, our understanding and appreciation of the underlying complexity that makes it function remains limited. If we were able to grasp the transformative potential of biodiversity – specifically how it relates to biocomplexity – how might we change our behavior? In this episode, Nate is joined by ecologist Thomas Crowther to discuss the critical importance of biodiversity as an intricate web of life that supports all other living beings, not just through the sheer number of species, but because of the complexity of interactions within ecosystems. Thomas highlights the power of data in empowering individuals to make informed choices that positively impact nature, and the critical need to address inequality in order to foster ecological recovery. Could the power of data and knowledge catalyze humanity into valuing biodiversity for the sake of preserving ecological stability? How do local communities and initiatives play a key role in revitalizing productive ecosystems, and how can we change our patterns of consumption to better support them? And perhaps most importantly, if we come to understand the critical interconnectedness of the biosphere, might we finally rediscover our place within it, as one species among millions fostering life on this Blue-Green Earth? (Conversation recorded on April 15th, 2025) About Thomas Crowther: Thomas Crowther is an ecologist studying the connections between biodiversity and climate change. He is chair of the advisory council for the United Nations Decade on Ecosystem Restoration, as well as the founder of Restor : an online, open-data platform for the global restoration movement. He was also a professor in the Department of Environmental Systems Science at ETH Zurich, where he started Crowther Lab, an interdisciplinary group of scientists exploring how global-scale ecological systems interact to regulate the climate. In 2021, the World Economic Forum named Thomas a Young Global Leader for his work on the protection and restoration of biodiversity. Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
With more people on the planet than ever before – with most having constant digital access to one another – there is an abundance of potential relationships available to us. Despite this, there is also an increasing loneliness crisis across global society. What can evolutionary psychology teach us about this lack of meaningful relationships at a time of hyper-connectivity? In this week’s Frankly, Nate reflects on the effects of technology on modern relationships, and how Dunbar’s number infers a ceiling on the number of people we can meaningfully interact with. He emphasizes the rare value of full attention in close relationships, and the implications of our current social dynamics as we face more turbulent times and a smaller world ahead. What are the negative effects of overextending our social networks and how does that shape the way we build community? How can we foster and strengthen connections with the people who are most important to us? Finally, what will our networks look like when the economic music speeds up or stops, and those who are closest to us become our most important support systems? (Recorded May 6, 2025) Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
Last week, Europe experienced its worst blackout in living memory, which plunged tens of millions of people across Spain and Portugal into darkness for up to 18 hours. Life screeched to a halt, with trains, traffic lights, ATMs, phone connections, and internet access failing. In the aftermath, many important questions have arisen, including: what caused such a widespread grid failure, and how can Europe and other nations prepare for the next time an event like this happens? In today’s episode, Nate is joined by Pedro Prieto to discuss the recent blackout in the Iberian Peninsula, exploring its causes, impacts, and the role of renewable energy in the stability of the electric grid. Prieto highlights the societal and infrastructural challenges that his home country faced, emphasizing the need for a balanced approach to energy management, as well as the interconnectedness of energy systems and societal resilience. The discussion delves into the complexities of energy demand and supply, the importance of backup systems, and the future of renewable energy in Spain. Are developed countries more vulnerable to blackouts than those that are still developing? How does renewable energy act as a double-edged sword, adding stability or fragility to energy infrastructure, depending on how it's used? How might developed countries learn lessons from this widespread blackout, including policy changes or reducing energy dependence in the face of future energy challenges? (Conversation recorded on May 1st, 2025) About Pedro Prieto: Pedro is the vice president of the Asociación para el Estudio de los Recursos Energéticos (AEREN). AEREN is an open space for debate and communications on energy issues and their role in demography, development, economy and ecology. Pedro was a member of the board at ASPO International with AEREN representing ASPO in Spain. Since 2004, Pedro has led several solar photovoltaic projects in Spain, a leading world country in solar PV penetration. Pedro co-authored Spain's Photovoltaic Revolution. The Energy Return on Investment, that challenged the conventional energy boundaries considered up to the moment for calculations. Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
Each morning, people around the world wake up to more troubling headlines – from power outages in Spain and Portugal to intensifying drone attacks in Ukraine. For some people, diving into the facts and data behind these types of crises provides an increase in knowledge resulting in agency and response. On the other hand, a growing number of people feel overloaded with the constant stream of information about the multitude of threats in our world. How can people on this second arc of sensemaking still engage with these issues by grounding themselves in individual and community initiatives? In this week’s Frankly, Nate reflects on the increasingly wide variability in people’s ability to consume and metabolize information on the converging crises actively playing out in our world. He reflects on his own ways of making sense of it all, and what that means for the kind of educational work still needed to address our shared Human Predicament. How can we remain motivated to pursue meaningful work in times when we feel overwhelmed with the fragile state of the world? What is the role of information (and podcasts) in a landscape inundated with heavy news? And how might we draw on past sensemaking in order to move forward with building a future that is ‘better than the default’? (Recorded April 30, 2025) Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
As economic, political, and environmental pressures continue to reshape our daily choices, it’s becoming increasingly clear that the era of hyper-consumption that defined the past century is no longer sustainable. Recognizing and adapting to this reality represents one of the most profound cultural shifts of our time – requiring collective reflection and cooperation. But just as importantly, how can we recalibrate our personal expectations today in ways that preserve our sense of agency and sufficiency? In this episode, Nate is joined by energy expert and educator Jean-Marc Jancovici, who shares insights from his ongoing work advising governments and the public on the limits of our economic systems amid growing energy and ecological constraints. Together, they discuss the evolving geopolitical landscape between the U.S. and Europe, the distinction between energy sobriéte and poverty, and the role of the elite in leading societal change towards more practical consumption levels. How can we change the way we’re communicating the science behind our predicament, especially as political and economic tensions continue to accelerate? Why is our collective vision of the future so important for preventing political turmoil? Finally, how can we combine technological efficiency with a change in cultural values to create a future that's not just survivable, but meaningfully better than the default? About Jean-Marc Jancovici: Jean-Marc Jancovici is a founding partner of Carbone 4 , a Paris based consultancy and data provider specializing in low carbon transition, biodiversity impacts, and physical risks of climate change. He is the founder and president of The Shift Project , a Paris based think tank advocating for a low carbon economy. Jean-Marc Jancovici is also an associate professor at Mines ParisTech, member of the French High Council for the Climate, and (co-)author of 8 books. Most recently, he and Christophe Blain released an American adaptation of their graphic novel, World Without End , which describes why our energy and environmental constraints require us to rethink everything: our energy supply, our economies, and our whole world. Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
What if the most powerful tool humanity has ever created could either help heal the Earth — or accelerate its unraveling? In this special Earth Week edition of Frankly, Nate delves into what it truly means for a technology or project to be “in service of Life,” using the rapidly evolving landscape of Artificial Intelligence as an example. Like any other tool that humanity has created, AI has the potential to either mitigate humanity’s impact on our planetary home or deepen the ecological crises we face. Nate speculates on the key metrics that might guide AI and other technologies toward goals that support the abundance and vibrancy of all complex life on Earth. In an age overflowing with information, could rethinking our relationships and incentive structures offer a clearer path forward? How can we identify goals that are not in service of Life? Finally, how could a shift in social and cultural values play the most critical part in transforming our human system to be aligned with the rest of the biosphere? (Recorded April 21, 2025) Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
The psychological effects of media consumption and keeping up with the 24-hour news cycle are vast. It can sometimes feel impossible to stay educated on current events without also feeling hopeless, disempowered, or even enraged. Worse, the incentives and structures of modern media outlets seem more and more geared towards capturing our attention at any cost… including our mental health, trust in one another, and even open societies themselves. Given this, is there a way to get back to a form of media and journalism that helps us feel empowered, and if so, how do we do it? Today, Nate is joined by neuroscientist and best-selling author, Maren Urner, to discuss the critical role of journalism in democracy, the importance of rebuilding trust in media, and how neuroscience can inform our understanding of media consumption. Maren makes the case for constructive journalism – a more balanced and solutions-oriented approach to reporting – as a powerful antidote to the relentlessly negative tone of traditional media. She also highlights the urgent need for systemic change in the way journalism operates if we want to foster a more informed and empowered public. How do our deeply ingrained cognitive biases shape the way news is produced and consumed? Could journalism evolve to become a force for collective action and positive change, rather than just another profit-driven industry competing for our clicks? And in a world where our attention has become one of the most valuable – and contested – resources, how can we take greater ownership over the media we choose to engage with? (Conversation recorded on March 31st, 2025) About Maren Urner: Maren Urner is a neuroscientist and, since September 2024, Professor for Sustainable Transformation at Münster University of Applied Sciences and Head of the new Master's program in Sustainable Transformation Design. In 2016, she co-founded "Perspective Daily," the first ad-free online magazine for constructive journalism. She led the editorial team as editor-in-chief and served as managing director until March 2019. After her time at Perspective Daily, she taught as a professor of media psychology at the Media University of Applied Sciences in Cologne until August 2024. Maren has been a columnist for the Frankfurter Rundschau since September 2020. Her three books, End the Daily Doomsday, Out of the Eternal Crisis, and Radically Emotional: How Feelings Make Politics are SPIEGEL bestsellers. She is the winner of the 2023 BAUM Environmental and Sustainability Award in the science category. Show Notes and More Watch this video episode on YouTube Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie. --- Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future Join our Substack newsletter Join our Discord channel and connect with other listeners…
 
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